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Blog: Prolix
Description: This is a word game with a couple of unusual twists. It has publisher attention, but no bites yet. And yet I keep tweaking it...
Created by IngredientX on Mon 17 of Sep, 2007 [02:48am]
Last modified Mon 21 of Jul, 2008 [02:38am]
(20 posts | 4322 visits | Activity=2.00)
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Dexcon 2008

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Mon 21 of Jul, 2008 [02:38am]
It's been an exhausting weekend.

And as far as Prolix is concerned, it's been a productive one, too. I came in on Thursday night, exhilirated at its awesome showing at Protospiel. But at the same time, I was wary that a different group could always break the game.

Four playtests later, progress has been made.

Friday:

Playtest #1: Four players, not including me. One player, M, played at a deliberate pace. Not slow by any means, but he would take a minute or two to figure out an optimal play. The game was peppy, and finished in about 45 minutes. One of M's turns seems to slow down, but just before I propose the "unanimously agree to move the letters and start to play the turn again," M turns around with a brilliant 19-pointer.

Everybody seemed to enjoy the game. One fellow, J, ambled over in the middle of the game and was so intrigued that he asked to play it again. A friend of mine, G, also came by at this point and asked to play.

Playtest #2: Three players, including me. And suddenly: crash. J is slower than M was, and immediately realizes that interrupts aren't worthwhile enough. He can get bigger points on his turn. So the game takes more like an hour. Eeeyuk.

We discuss a postmortem, and I go up to my hotel room in a miserable mood. So much for "done;" the lockup problem is alive and well.

J is a very nice and intelligent fellow, and he designs variants for a published game, so he's not a stranger to the game design process. Still, all his suggestions for rules are much more high-reaching than I'm comfortable with. At this point, I don't want to change much more than the scoresheet and the tile mix, but J wants to see interrupted players not get a second turn. He also likes increasing penalties for interrupts, which I'd rather not go back to for reasons of simplicity. Still... does he have a point?

G thought the game was okay, but not great. J didn't seem to enjoy it... or so I thought.

Saturday:

I didn't play Prolix at all. I wonder if the 3-player game causes the downtime, considering that there's one less player to interrupt.

Sunday:

Playtest #3: Another game, with N, L, M again, and J again. Yeah, it turns out J wants to give it another whirl.

N is excited to play the game; he hasn't tried it in two years, with the old chip-based Interrupt system. I figure that between M and J, I can tell whether the lockup is specifically a 3-player problem.

It's not. The game lasts 75 minutes. The letters are incredibly difficult; lots of rare chips out there. I'm watching, in excruciating misery. I'm positive no one is having a good time, as M and J study the board.

One of J's turns lasts 20 minutes. At one point, we actually invoke the unanimous clearing rule for the first time in the game's history, but in practice, it feels like putting a band-aid on a broken leg.

L is not leaning forward. He's sitting back in his chair, seemingly disengaged from the game. He frequently doesn't have enough points to interrupt.

Halfway through the game, a bunch of nasty tiles disappear, and suddenly the pace of the game picks up. L and N start to lean forward. They start to interrupt. J loses a turn, then N loses a turn. Things are picking up.

J almost loses a second turn to interrupts, which would have been devastating, as he had only one interrupt and his turn was last in the game. He and L blurt at a word at the same time. L's interrupting word is a little worse in the tiebreaker, and J's word stays in.

Everyone exhales, and at first, I thought it was a sigh of relief that this damn, stupid game has ended. But no; L loved the game, despite his body language! N says he doesn't like any other word games, but he'd play this again in a heartbeat. J wants to play again RIGHT NOW.

All these players, who I thought were humoring me by continuing the game, enjoyed it! They all agree that the game ran a little long, but they were all engaged, and they all had fun.

So, I'm resolute. No big changes. I have to make tiny tweaks.

Playtest #4: A and S have been watching the game. I showed the game to A last year at a friend's house, and she was interested. I have no idea if she likes word games, but she seems like she wants to try it.

S has seen the game in various stages, and he's impressed by how far it's gone. He's an interesting guy, who has never actually played the game, but who glances at a board in progress when he's not playing something himself, and finds a word better than anything we see.

Bang, the game locks up again. I look at the board. Four uncommon tiles out. We invoke the cleanup rule, but now it's as if I've seen my enemy's face. We make sure no more than 2 uncommon tiles are out at any one point. It's a little fiddly, but it'll do for now. The game hums from there, and we finish in less than an hour.

I'm still not crazy about interrupts; both A and I have interrupted with 18-point words, and wound up losing points after the 4-point penalty. I suggest dropping the 4-point penalty to 3, and everyone thinks that might help.

So, the two tweaks I'll introduce in the game's next test are:

  • No more than 2 uncommon tiles out on the board at any time. If it turns out to be too fiddly, I'll figure out some other way to address the problem. I could always add more common letters to the tile mix; that would at least make that replacement less frequent.

  • Interrupt penalties will be -3 instead of -4.

Everyone really enjoyed the game, and I can't say how relieved I am. But I need more playtests!

Finally, an announcement: I just made an order for a bunch of poker chips, and I have a bunch of cloth bags. Once I'm happy with this round of tweaks, I won't be far from sending blind test copies out! I'm only 8 months behind with Seth's copy... :)

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Protospiel 2008

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Tue 15 of Jul, 2008 [01:32am]
Recap: In 2007, I brought Prolix to Protospiel. I thought it was more ceremonial than anything else. The game was mostly done, so what could possibly be suggested?

The game was hammered by all sorts of suggestions, some which didn't work, and some which did. I left knowing that the game wasn't done yet.

Turns out those suggestions were pretty good in the end. They led to a revised board and simpler letter-movement rules. I took these to Protospiel 2008, and battened down the metaphorical hatches for all the advice that about how the game was or wasn't yet.

I was stunned by the responses I got: "It's done." "How much are you charging?" "It's fun."

I won't say it's done just yet; I want to see how it does at Dexcon this weekend. But this game is awfully close to finished.

Some other quick observations:

  • Tried 2-player Speed Prolix. It didn't work; it's too much math to count up the columns. Maybe if it was a different game...

  • I posed a question about what to do about a game lockup. The unanimous answer was that a lockup would always occur if there's a problem player, who would cause problems in other games anyway. So for the boxed rules, don't worry about it. If there are ever Prolix tournaments, then maybe there should be a 3-minute timer. After all, timers are used in Scrabble tournaments, so there's a precedent there.

  • I must get in touch with the game company about the new board. It's just playing too well to not let them know about it. Tomorrow, hopefully.

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The Antidisestablishmentarianism Factor

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Sun 22 of Jun, 2008 [04:07am]
The whole idea of Prolix is that it's a word game for people who like big words. People who are always one tile or card away from that awesome word in Those Other Word Games.

But one flip side that I've been lucky enough to avoid so far is the "Antidisestablishmentarianism Factor." If the game rewards such big words, why wouldn't "antidisestablishmentarianism" be called out at least once a game?

Well, the pat answer is that it should be called out, if it's the right word for the board. But on any other board, it should be as bad as any other ill-fitting word. If the word can perform decently on any board, well, that's a problem.

And now that I'm filling the board with more and more letters to prevent lockups, I'm noticing that I'm backing away from one problem, straight into another.

And this problem is arguably worse. Right now, lockups only happen with certain players, and they're probably players who lock up other games. But the "a..." problem is a break. It's a solution. It's an optimal strategy, or at least a single, dull strategy that will make the game Less Fun.

Ugh.

So I sat down and played 15 rounds against the word "antidisestablishmentarianism." I came up with two words every round; one for the current, 5-column board, and one for a 4-column board that I'm thinking might be a good compromise.

The outcome:

On the 5-column board, I beat antidisestablishmentarianism, 12-3. That is, out of the 15 words, "antidisestablishmentarianism" only beat my word three times.

My words averaged a score of 18.6 points, while antidisestablishmentarianism averaged a score of 15.13 (to people who haven't played with the 5-column board: yes, scores are much higher!).

So, not bad... but not great. An average of 15.13 is not a terrible score, and about what an average player will score. I do NOT want the "a..." strategy to result in "average" scores. I want it to result, over 15 words, in below-average scores.

The 4-column board was a little better. I beat "a..." 13-2. My words averaged 17.6, while "a..." dropped to 13.4. So my scores dropped a little (to be expected, with fewer letters out), but "a..." took a bigger hit than me!

So, the next playtest of this game will be on a 4-column board. That means 8 chips out in total. I don't know if this is the last of the "a..." problem, but I hope this starts to address it.

Of course, fewer chips means that I veer back towards likely lockup situations. But it looks like it's a spectrum, and I'm either going to be close to one side, or the other. If I can find a nice balance, I'll be happy.

Oooh, one more thing... I had another playtest this past weekend. I tried -2 interrupt penalties, but even those were still too low! I'm going to go up to -4 for the next game.

-4 is a weird number, isn't it? I almost want to round it up to -5, but I worry that's going to dry up the interrupts too much.

The playtesters had never played the game before, and they were intrigued by the original, increasing penalties of the interrupts. I like the elegance of the consistent penalty, but maybe the increase will make it back, if that will slow the interrupts down.

Phew. One stinking board change, and the whole thing gets thrown off-kilter. But I think once this board is stabilized, it'll be a huge improvement, at least mechanically, over the old board.

What does the new board look like? Oh, right.

O O O O
O O O O
4 3 4 2

Again, it's just a try. Maybe 8 letters is too few. I'd like to see how it goes. And I'd love to see what the Protospielers will think next month...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that there's one other thing I can do in case 8 letters is too few. I can restore the fifth column, but make it negative. Like this...

O O O O O
O O O O O
4 3 4 2 -1

I'd suppose that if a person uses a word with a letter in the negative column and another column, he'd have to use the negative letter first. Otherwise, it may not have enough impact.

I'm not crazy about this, because it flies against what I think the spirit of the game is, which is an "unrestricted" word game. I don't want people to feel like they have to avoid letters. But I have to mention it as a possibility, even though it's quite remote.

Also, with all this score inflation, I'm keeping the letter rarity bonus the same... for now. It still feels like it's at the right level.

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Two games for two folks

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Mon 09 of Jun, 2008 [02:48am]
The game is at a crossroads. I'm curious to see where it goes from here.

First, we have the "older" 3-column board. Letters move when used. There's a bit of tactics, but it's possible that an extremely slow player can lock up the game under certain conditions.

Next, we have the "newer" 5-column board. Letter movement would be much more fiddly, so I've decided that on this board, all letters move one column to the right when used. So there aren't really any tactics, other than when to interrupt.

The higher scoring on the "newer" board also means that I need to raise the value of the interrupt penalty, from -1 to -2 or even -3. There are too many interrupts with the newer board, but raising the interrupt penalty will help with that.

I may also raise the bonus of the rarer chips, though that doesn't seem to be as pressing an issue.

The newer board is much simpler to teach and play with. I'm not so sure that I'll miss the tactics, but future playtests will bear this out. There's also always something to interrupt with, making turns nice, quick, and tense.

Hopefully I can get another playtest this Saturday, during my monthly game group...

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Hypocrisy and lies

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Tue 03 of Jun, 2008 [12:40am]
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's a game that comes with several different rulesets. Everyone agrees on one of the rulesets, and off they go.

This is tough for me, because it reeks of indecisiveness. Someone somewhere came up with more than one ruleset for a game, and rather than choosing the best ruleset, he passed the choice to the players. Players who tend to take 45 minutes deciding what game to play next, to say nothing about what version of the game they want to play.

I mention this because I'm in a position where I could supply several rulesets to Prolix. Gah. I'd rather play 'em all and choose my favorite... but I have the feeling that different groups will prefer different games. What does that mean? That the groups are really different? Or that the games are so mediocre that one is just the same as another?

Anyway. Here are the three rulesets I'm considering. All these would be played on the 5-column, 2-row board.

  • Basic Prolix. Like I mentioned in my last post, this is the super-simple version of the game. All letters shift one column to the right after each word. This version may not even have interrupts, just to KISS. The idea is to be able to play it with a whole family, including 6-8 year olds.

  • Advanced Prolix. This would be the "regular game," as we know it. Letter chips only move when used or forced. I'd like to keep it on the new board, as that seems less likely to lock up.

  • Speed Prolix. Hoo boy. Here comes the part where I contradict myself.

Remember when I said I wasn't interested in making a puzzle version of Prolix? And that I didn't want any timers? That was what, my last post?

In the spirit of pure hypocrisy, I'm going to try these rules at this weekend's playtest...

  • Start the game by having one player fill up all 5 columns and 2 rows on the board. He keeps the bag. A 30- or 45-second sand timer is kept within easy reach of all players.
  • All players study the board.
  • At any point, one player can take the timer, flip it in front of it, and bid a number (the bid value). That number should be the highest-valued word he thinks is out on the board.
  • All players (including the player with the timer) now have until the timer runs out to come up with a word, and write it onto their scoresheets.
  • All players score their words. Each player then takes the bid value and subtracts it from his score (edit: corrected from seo's advice). He applies the resulting modifier to the score.

For example, in a round where the Bid Value is 15, Player A has a 20-point word, and Player B has a 12-point word. Player A's modifier is +5 (20-15=5). Applying this to his score, he gets 25 points for the round.

Player B isn't as happy. His modifier is -3 (12-15=-3). He gets 9 points for the round.


It's a little math-y, but for now, it accomplishes what I need. The only thing left is to figure out the bonus for the player with the timer, because there needs to be an incentive to grab that thing. I was thinking something like +2 points for every player who didn't exceed the bid value, or a flat +5.

  • Finally, all chips move one column to the right. Chips in the rightmost column are discarded. The bag passes one player clockwise. That player draws two new letters into the first column, and the next round starts.

  • The player with the most points after six rounds is the winner.

We'll see how it plays out. I have the feeling that the Saturday group will prefer it, but my regular players will hate it!


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What if I hated the bathwater more than I liked the baby?

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Sun 25 of May, 2008 [02:23pm]
Yesterday, I played with some folks from the Albany playtest group. Several had played the game before, and they felt that the letter chip movement rules are still too complicated. Once that came up, it seemed to be a unanimous feeling from everyone in the room. The letter chip movment rules are too fiddly.

So we tried another game later in the evening, with a different board and much simpler movement rules.

The board looks like this.

OOOOO
OOOOO
34342

Each O is a letter chip space, and the third row are just point values. All letter chip spaces are full. Every round, the letter chips move one column to the right, with the last column being discarded and the first column getting new chips.

That's it. No overflow spaces, no "you have to move this chip first."

Pros...
  • It's much simpler. Used chips are still flipped over to count their score, but all chips advance. It'll take about 45 seconds to explain the game rules now.
  • There are always 10 chips on the board, no more, no less. There are also always 4 chips in the premium four-point spaces. So everyone will always have something to work with.
  • Fewer play errors. In the afternoon playtest with the old board, players kept missing overflow spaces. No chance of that happening here.
  • With this much material on the board, lockups will be much rarer. In theory, there will always be 32 points on the board, plus bonus points from rare chips. The only way the game could lock up is if everyone has scored a minimum of, say, 25 every round, no one can see a better play than that on the last turn, and the active player will not move until he sees a play that is better than his interrupts. That'll be extremely rare, and we may just be able to file it under "game group problem."

Cons...
  • Just one, really. This board is completely non-tactical. Nothing you do can negatively affect your opponent.

There's some history to explain here. In the pre-Protospiel '07 version, the board had four columns instead of three. Emptying the high-point column was a key tactic, as it left the next player with little to work with. Of course, that slowed the game down terribly, as the next player took forever to come up with a word that broke ten points.

The three-column board had less tactics than the four-column board, moreso when I changed the size of the first column to make sure there were usually letters in the high-point column.

The new board is completely tactic-less, other than "score what you can." This is good because it makes things simpler, but I worry that I've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. What if it makes the game too light?

Tactics in Prolix are a bit of a mixed bag. The original idea was to have light, subtle tactics that reward clever play and extend replayability. I always wanted the focus to remain on long, impressive words, but some "this is what you should do here" play wouldn't be bad. I didn't want as many tactics in Scrabble (i.e. don't open up a Triple Word Score unless you get more points out of it than the play you're opening up for your opponent), but I wanted something in there to make it a little like a game.

You can look at it as a spectrum, like this.

Puzzle Game < — > Prolix < — > Tactical Game

Here, a "puzzle game" is one that all players have to try to solve simultaneously, like Ubongo or Ricochet Robot. Nothing against those games, but I find that Prolix plays better when each player has something resembling a "turn." We tried "Puzzle Prolix" at Protospiel '07, and it just wasn't as interesting.

A "tactical game" is a turn-based game where tactics underscore the game mechanics. For a word game, this becomes "good things to do" in addition to coming up with high-scoring words. In theory, a word game with strong tactics would force players to decide between a move that gives them high points with a great word, or high points with a good word and good tactical play.

I want Prolix to fall between these two categories. But where? At first, it was closer to Tactical Game, but as those rules fell away in the name of anti-fiddliness and game length, it's inched towards Puzzle Game. If I do go with these new board rules, that means less game depth, and possibly less replayability.

So, my first recourse is to ask people who have played the game: what do you think? Would you miss the tactics in the new board? Or do you prefer the emphasis on high-scoring words?

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Stepping back from the ledge

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Tue 20 of May, 2008 [01:53pm]
After a couple of days' of reflection, I'm realizing a few things...

1) Yeah, Prolix still has a lockup problem.
2) The lockup problem is pretty rare. I've playtested this version of the game dozens of times, but this is the first real lockup I've had.
3) There's no need to throw off the equalibrium of the game for a rare problem.

So I'm going with the first solution for now. It's going to go like this...

Quote:
If all players feel that there aren't any optimal plays to make, they can call for new letters. This call must be unanimous among all players!

Once all players agree to new letters, play is stopped, and no one can interrupt.

Any chips in overflow spaces are resolved. Since new chips are often drawn into overflow spaces, this is quite possible. If resolving this causes other chips move into overflow spaces, then those are resolved, and so on, until there are no chips in any overflow spaces.

Then, the last player to draw from the bag draws two new chips. Play then continues exactly from where it left off, with players now able to interrupt again.

If the active player hadn't been interrupted before the new tiles came out, he's still considered as not being interrupted after the new tiles come out. Similarly, if the active player had been interrupted once before the new tiles came out, he's still considered as having been interrupted once after the new tiles come out.


I'll give this a try, and see if it starts to occur too frequently. My biggest concerns are...
  • players somehow using this to metagame
  • a slow player not agreeing to new chips, holding everyone else up.

We'll see, but I'm hoping it's unobtrusive enough that it resolves the lockup, while still letting the core of the game shine through.

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Broken!

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Mon 19 of May, 2008 [02:51am]
It's always a good news/bad news situation when playtesters break your game.

On one hand, you have some valuable data that you can use to make your game stronger.

On the other hand, you realize how ill-prepared your beautiful baby is to enter the world.

This past weekend, I was in a 3-player Prolix game that ground to a halt on the very last turn. Completely locked up. Yes, the players were a little AP-prone, but I can't forbid people from playing the game just because they like to think. The game has to be able to recover from a potential lockup.

All that needs to happen for Prolix to lock up is the following:

a) Players who have interrupted a lot early on, so they risk lots if interrupting again.
b) One player who will not make a play unless it makes a significant difference in his score.
c) No one willing to take a bullet to make the game move along.
d) A board with a lot of difficult letters.

a) and d) are entirely possible, and c) should be expected. Most of my playtesters are willing to forego b), but one player was determined to find a high-scoring word. We couldn't finish the game because of that.

I'd love to get all snooty and say, "don't play with people who take so long," but the fact is, the game needs to be stronger.

Prolix is an elegant game. This sounds like a boast, but it's actually a complaint. Any tweak I make to it has to be as tiny and subtle as possible. I swear, I'm only designing sprawling chromefests from now on.

So, I'm looking at a few possible solutions to the lockup bug...

a) Have the players, by unanimous consent, add two letters to the board whenever they want.
b) Include a... include a... (sigh) timer.
c) Increase the number of letters added to the board later in the game.

a) is a pretty straightforward solution, but it's also very much a hack. There's something I don't like about it, but I can't really put my finger on it.

b) isn't quite that bad, even though it's been my intention to avoid a timer for the game. I might be able to pull it off, without causing the brainfreeze that a timer normally causes, and that I'm desperately trying to avoid.

b1) If a player doesn't think anyone can come up with a good word, he flips the timer. That player cannot come up with a word while the timer is running.
b2) If no one comes up with a word by the time the timer is done, the player who flipped the timer gets 1 point. Two new letters are added to the board, and the active player starts his turn again.
b3) If a player comes up with a word while the timer is running, his word is worth 1 extra point.

It's a little fiddly, and it adds a dimension to the game that I don't necessarily want to add.

I just thought of c) while writing this, and it's intriguing. It would add an arc to the game, because the extra letters would make the endgame feel different from the opening. It probably won't add a whole lot of overhead to the rules either. But it doesn't directly address the lockup problem, so I'd have to be sure the extra letters are worth it.

If this was a gamer's game, I'd tie the extra drawn chips to the number of interrupts made, but that's a little too crunchy. I might have players draw 3 chips starting in Round 4. I might just have the player who starts each round draw 1 or 2 extra letters. Or I might trigger an extra draw every time the 3-point column was empty, though that's a little heavyhanded.

I may even increase the number of board spaces later in the game. That would certainly increase the number of chips on the board.

Tough choices. I'm leaning towards c) for now, because it's the simplest fix, and it's firmly in the spirit of the game.

Time to sleep on it. Hopefully I'll have an answer soon.

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Oh, right. A publisher update

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Mon 28 of Apr, 2008 [01:49am]
No, don't get excited. I spoke with them a couple of weeks ago.

Apparently, the game has made it out of the closet and onto a table.

Progress, I suppose.

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Stronger, Faster, Better

posted by IngredientX IngredientX on Mon 28 of Apr, 2008 [01:45am]
I've had a couple of playtests lately that have shown me that there's some room for me to tweak the Interrupt system. Obviously, at this point, I'm just making the tiniest of changes, because even those can send enormous ripples throughout the whole game. These changes will almost always be cuts, not adds. I'm looking to streamline and simplify, and hopefully make the design more elegant.

Recall that there's an increasing penalty for interrupting players. This means that players will almost always max out at 2-3 interrupts (though I once saw a player interrupt 4 times, and he still won the game!).

I'm realizing that this increasing penalty isn't really necessary. There's already an increasing penalty that emerges from the game. If you interrupt once, you'll replace your lowest score. The second interrupt replaces your second lowest score, and your third replaces your third lowest score. At that point, you're most likely risking losing points already, and the increasing penalty ensures that a player will likely be disengaged from the game flow by the last round. That might make the game drag for some.

So I'm going to try a flat -1 modifier for all interrupts. I don't want to eliminate the penalty just yet, because I'm worried about the game starting to become a puzzle game, which we've already found isn't as much fun. Maybe at some point, I'll try eliminating the modifier, because perhaps the replacement mechanism is enough to discourage wanton interrupting. It would certainly be a more elegant game without the penalty, but I don't want the skill levels to become too stratified.

I had an interesting game today. I saw all sorts of potential issues come up; many letters leaving the board, difficult letter combinations, and two times when we had to use the tiebreaker. One of those tiebreakers wound up with interrupting players with identical scores, which is resolved by the player closest to the active player breaking the tie.

Through it all, the game bent but never broke. No one "gamed" the system, everyone had a good time, and it lasted a quick, punchy 30 minutes. It's an incredible thing, to see a fragile game that's broken by the tiniest bit of metagaming slowly become a solid, strong design that can withstand a wide variety of experiences.

I'm really starting to respect designs like Zooloretto, which can be played casually or seriously. You can approach it with heavy strategy, or by the seat of your pants, and it's still a fun game. That takes a hell of a lot more work than I ever expected.

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Woo Hoo! I'm "in the know"!
on: Mon 17 of Sep, 2007 [09:34pm] score: 0.00
Being lucky enough to attend the Spielbany meeting last July, I was able to play a game of Prolix. I liked it a lot. I kinda like word games, from Scrabble to Upwards to Boggle... Prolix was definitely a decent word game. And different from other word games, which is good.

I'll post some of the thoughts I sent Gil after I played, but first here's an idea that just popped into my head...

Suppose there's a bonus point (or points) if you BEGIN a word with a letter from the FIRST column, and/or END a word with a letter from the LAST column. Would that add anything to the game? In retrospect, maybe not... but it was an idea, so i thought I'd jot it down. Now, to the comments...

PROLIX
I like word games, and I really liked this word game. The only comments I can make are the following:
1. the board could be more intuitive - the arrows don't really show how the chips are supposed to move, so if that's important then it should be shown differently.
2. The game could benefit from more specific rules regarding what words are legal and what are not, how you interrupt, etc.
3. I'd like to submit the following for the challenge rule: The loser of the challenge loses points equal to the value of the challenged word. This penalizes either player evenly as opposed to crossing out a word or losing a turn which doesn't matter much when you can interrupt.
I wouldn't mind making a copy of this to play around here.


author message
Re: Woo Hoo! I'm "in the know"!
on: Tue 18 of Sep, 2007 [02:27am] score: 0.00
Quote:
Being lucky enough to attend the Spielbany meeting last July, I was able to play a game of Prolix. I liked it a lot. I kinda like word games, from Scrabble to Upwards to Boggle... Prolix was definitely a decent word game. And different from other word games, which is good.

I'll post some of the thoughts I sent Gil after I played, but first here's an idea that just popped into my head...

Suppose there's a bonus point (or points) if you BEGIN a word with a letter from the FIRST column, and/or END a word with a letter from the LAST column. Would that add anything to the game? In retrospect, maybe not... but it was an idea, so i thought I'd jot it down. Now, to the comments...


Yeah, I don't think that'll add enough to the game. I mean, that's the tricky thing about the game. Its core is so simple that most rules additions will mess it up. I've had to reject a lot more playtester advice than normal for this one, because it needs as simple a ruleset as possible.

Quote:
1. the board could be more intuitive - the arrows don't really show how the chips are supposed to move, so if that's important then it should be shown differently.


Pete's taken care of this! His board is much nicer than mine.

Quote:
2. The game could benefit from more specific rules regarding what words are legal and what are not, how you interrupt, etc.

Yeah, working on those. :)
Quote:
3. I'd like to submit the following for the challenge rule: The loser of the challenge loses points equal to the value of the challenged word. This penalizes either player evenly as opposed to crossing out a word or losing a turn which doesn't matter much when you can interrupt.

It's not a bad way of doing things. Truth be told, I'll need to leave challenge rules to blind testers. I hate playing with them; I find them less fun. So I'm a terrible judge of whether they work or not. I just let the player make another guess.

I need to find a group that's more intense than mine, but that will still be able to objectively judge the challenge rules.

This game will be in better shape to blind test after the next few weeks. Seth, I guess you'd be interested? :)


author message
Aren't I always?
on: Tue 18 of Sep, 2007 [04:41pm] score: 0.00
Sure, I liked that one. As for the challenge rule, you have to have isomething/i or there's no point in challenging, and if there's no point in challenging, then there's little point in not making up crazy words...

I think the suggestion I made in July is still a fine way (maybe not the "best" way, but there may be no such thing) to do it.

I understood from your post that those other comments were being addressed, but for completeness I pasted my whole response.

Out of curiosity, how did you come to your letter distribution? I've always wondered about that for word games - how do you know how many of each letter to use?


author message
Re: Aren't I always?
on: Thu 20 of Sep, 2007 [02:22am] score: 0.00
Quote:
Sure, I liked that one. As for the challenge rule, you have to have isomething/i or there's no point in challenging, and if there's no point in challenging, then there's little point in not making up crazy words...

Oh yeah, I'm not doubting that. Just saying that I'm not a good person to judge challenge rules.

Quote:
Out of curiosity, how did you come to your letter distribution? I've always wondered about that for word games - how do you know how many of each letter to use?

This would probably be better answered as an honest-to-goodness blog post. Looks like I have a writing assignment...


author message
BGG.con
on: Mon 01 of Oct, 2007 [07:54pm] score: 0.00
I made a Geeklist at BGG about playtesting at BGG.con - you should go add Prolix to it!


author message
Re: BGG.con
on: Tue 02 of Oct, 2007 [01:47pm] score: 0.00
Quote:
I made a Geeklist at BGG about playtesting at BGG.con - you should go add Prolix to it!


Done! Thanks!


author message
Regarding the board
on: Wed 17 of Oct, 2007 [05:53am] score: 0.00
Why don't you post a pc of what you have for the board and what it's supposed to do, and see if someone can't help you out with that...


author message
Good luck!
on: Mon 18 of Feb, 2008 [12:10am] score: 0.00
Gil, good luck at the toy fair! Hope the meeting is a success!


author message
Congrats
on: Tue 19 of Feb, 2008 [06:56am] score: 0.00
Sounds like the meeting was a success, Gil.

If I were you I wouldn't worry too much about b) and c). If they want to publish this game, I'm sure you can work out a contract. You should be able to negotiate a clause which states that the rights to the game revert back to you xx months or years after the last print run. Five years is pretty standard here.

Also, make sure there's a clause that states that the rights to the game revert back to you xx months after signing the contract, if the game still isn't printed. Normally, this is one or two years. This covers your c) fears ;)

Both clauses are pretty standard in the gaming industry, make sure they are in your contract.

Good luck!


author message
Re: Congrats
on: Tue 19 of Feb, 2008 [12:03pm] score: 0.00
Thanks Rene! I hope I have to deal with that issue. :)


author message
Insta-rupts
on: Tue 19 of Feb, 2008 [05:34pm] score: 0.00
As I read your post where you were concerned about the number of insta-rupts in a 5p game, I had the following thought... what if you only allow a player to interrupt their neighbor? So out of the 4 opponents, you can only interrupt 2 of them. the number of interrupts should approximate that of a 3p game (I think). It may be slightly frustrating if you see a good word, but the player who's turn it is is "out of range", but I don't think it would be too bad, and you'd still get to interrupt your left and right neighbors on their turns.

Just a thought... probably only needed for 5p game (or more), but could be a standard rule without changing the 4p game much, I think.


author message
Re: Insta-rupts
on: Tue 19 of Feb, 2008 [10:38pm] score: 0.00
I thought of that too, Seth. But the situation you described was what stopped me. I want players to be able to interrupt at any time, especially if the 3-point column is full.

It's funny that in the original rules, I only allowed each player to interrupt twice. Once they spent both interrupts, it was elevator music during other players' turns for the rest of the game.

When I changed that to increasing penalties for many interrupts, players stayed engaged in the game, even though they still only interrupted about twice a game! Funny how that worked out; that element of control is something that goes a long way, and I'd rather not remove it if possible.

What I didn't mention in the blog post is the way I got around this is by changing the interrupt penalties. The first interrupt was -1 instead of zero, the second was -2 instead of -1, and so on. So it turned out to be okay in terms of insta-interrupts; players only interrupted between once and twice a game, and there were about the same number of total interrupts as in a 4-player game.

So I actually didn't encounter too many insta-interrupts in that 5p test... but the positive feedback problem was a real issue, and now I'm worried that it can creep into the 4p game as well! Sadly, I haven't had a chance to get the game onto the table since then, and I won't be able to until I make another copy! biggrin

Anyway, I should have posted more about the 5p game, but things have been crazy lately.


author message
Lockup?
on: Tue 20 of May, 2008 [06:27pm] score: 0.00
I gotta say, I'm not a fan of your new anti-lockup rule. To me it sounds either ineffectual (someone won't agree), or ripe for abuse.

If it's such a rare occasion my instinct says to leave it alone and let the players chide their slow-playing buddy into doing something - keep it outside the rules of the game.

Your wording is funky too... if all players agree there's no optimal play? So you can do this if there's a play and you just don't like it? If you implement this rule, I suggest you say "if there is no legal play" (!)

I'm still waiting for my copy (or my files to make my own)! Maybe I'll just use the stuff I made for Reading Railroad :)

- Seth


author message
New board
on: Tue 27 of May, 2008 [09:26pm] score: 0.00
I'll have to think about it some more, but while the new board idea isn't bad, I think it could be better. I'd hate for a letter I was hoping to use to drop off the board while I wait for my turn to come around (because I didn't interrupt, I guess that would be my fault a little) - I prefer letters only leaving play when people use them or something. I also liked that the value went up and then down, so you might try harder to use the tiles in the middle column rather than the first/last columns... but doing so makes some letters more valuable to your opponents. I liked that 'tactical play' a lot.

I'll try and think about your board and how I might like to see it represented.


author message
Re: New board
on: Wed 28 of May, 2008 [05:16pm] score: 0.00
Yeah, the feedback I've been getting so far is that people would miss the tactical play. I have to confess, the simplicity of this new board is really seductive. I may try a basic board/advanced board for a little while, just to see if there's a difference.

I might also mess with the tactical board a bit. Perhaps making it shorter and wider might give the game a boost.

There's another playtesting session next Saturday; most of the folks at that group will probably prefer the basic board. We'll see how it goes.

And yeah Seth, I should be getting you a copy of the game soon, shouldn't I? redface


author message
seo
Speed Prolix
on: Wed 04 of Jun, 2008 [09:02am] score: 0.00
I like how Speed Prolix sounds, but after giving it some thought, I feel the scoring is unnecessarily fiddly. Maybe I am missing something, but my calculations point me to two (related) conclusions:

a) it doesn't really matter what the bid value is (as it is substracted to all players from the double of their words' values)
b) difference in score is just as if players score double their word values

In short: independent of the actual scoring, the difference in points among players is always the same. Based on this, the only point I can see for the bid value (other than its perceived role in scoring, even if not real) would be to set the bonus for the timer player (your +2 per player below the bid value), but then, why not always set a value of 300, so I'm sure I'll score +2 for each of my opponents? An that would evidently deprive the timer bonus of any value, as it would (as the fixed +5 suggestion would) turn Prolix into a race-to-set-the-bid-value-and-get-the-bonus game.

Maybe I am missing something.

Also, I think you mistyped the scoring rule. Based on your examples, it should be "Each player then takes his score and subtracts the bid value from it."


author message
Re: Speed Prolix
on: Wed 04 of Jun, 2008 [10:21pm] score: 0.00
Hey seo, thanks for the feedback!

First off, you're right about the mistyping; I did mean Score minus Bid Value.

The reason I thought about the bid in the first place is that I didn't want a player to flip the timer until he had a word... but I didn't want him to announce the word when he flipped.

The fact that the net difference is the same no matter what the Bid Value is, is a problem. Maybe the way out of that is to set up the reward for the Timer Player in a way that he nets (or loses) more than other players for a good (or bad) bid. I'm not sure how to do that.

And as I've said, I'm not even sure if Speed Prolix is the way to go. So before I get bent out of shape about a proper scoring mechanism, I want to be sure that the game activity underneath it is fun. We'll see on Saturday...


author message
seo
Alternative scoring
on: Thu 05 of Jun, 2008 [12:30am] score: 0.00
What about this idea:

One player declares a score and starts the timer. The other players must find words with equal or better score than that before the time runs out. If they do, they score the corresponding points. The player who set the bid scores the bid plus 1 point per player failing to score in time (that means he will try to set the bid as high as possible). If no one else is able to come up with a word as good as the bid, the bid setter has to declare which word he found (otherwise he doesn't have to, so you can just set a bid value blindly in hope someone else comes up with an acceptable word, even if you didn't).

But the player who sets the bid scores just the bid plus the bonuses, not more, even if he finds a better word after setting the bid value. (That means you will rush to set the bid so you can score the extra bonuses, but if, in the rush, you set it too low, the other players will probably all score better than you).

I think this is a good way to keep the bid and timer idea, which I expect to add an interesting tension to the game, straightforward enough (easier than calculating the modifiers) and gives a real meaning to the bid value.


author message
Re: Alternative scoring
on: Thu 05 of Jun, 2008 [02:18am] score: 0.00
Thanks for the suggestion! Let me stew on it.


author message
seo
stealing my idea
on: Fri 06 of Jun, 2008 [10:26am] score: 0.00
Quote:
Thanks for the suggestion! Let me stew on it.


From your Sun 04 of Nov, 2007 09:00pm blog post:
Quote:
* Playtester makes suggestion.
* I react with a lukewarm, "I'll think about it."
* The following playtest, it's blindingly obvious that the suggestion is a good one.
* I implement the suggestion.
* I take full credit for everything.

Sounds good to me wink


author message
Re: stealing my idea
on: Sat 07 of Jun, 2008 [04:38am] score: 0.00
Don't you hate it when people actually read what you write? eekevilcoolbiggrin


author message
Antidis.... things
on: Mon 23 of Jun, 2008 [05:27pm] score: 0.00
Isn't there a rule about repeating a word? maybe that would be an easy fix for "Antidisestablishmentarianism" - allow it to be used only once per game. It's up to the players to decide when to use it, so it's like a game of chicken. A player might just use it early even for bad points (planning on replacing with an interrupt later) - just to make sure someone doesn't score big off it later.

Ditto other really big words, I guess.

I only played the game once or twice, and it was a year ago, but I liked it a whole lot as it was. All these "fixes" you are trying and proposing frankly make me skeptical. I wonder how necessary they are, or if it's a case of "if it's not broke, don't fix it". That said, the negative score column sounds neat. On the other hand, having a 2 column and a 4 column is about the same thing.


author message
Re: Antidis.... things
on: Mon 23 of Jun, 2008 [10:34pm] score: 0.00
That's funny Seth, Heather says the same thing! She thinks the old version is perfect.

Me? I'm bringing both versions to Protospiel, and seeing what people over there think.

I suppose it's entirely possible that all the changes I'm making at this point are lateral. And I know that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." But what if it still breaks every once in awhile?

My gut feeling is that the new board, once it's done, is going to be a lot more solid than the old board. Less fiddly, less lockups, more fun. By a substantial degree, enough to keep me tinkering.

As far as the no repeating rule, AKA "no cheapies," the current rule specifies what prefixes and suffixes can be added or removed: "-s", "-ed", "-ing," and "-ly." All others are fair game.

This means that "antidisestablishmentarianism" can be followed by "disestablishmentarianism," which can be followed by "estatblishmentarianism," and so on and so on. They'll score fewer and fewer points, but if even "establishmentarianism" gets 15 points on most boards, then there's a problem.

If it does turn out to be an issue, I'm not going to increase the scope of the "no cheapies" rule to fix this. I want to keep it to those four specific suffixes. Listing more suffixes would be fiddly, and opening the rule up to any "direct modification" has proved to be open to rules lawyering ("but isn't Wizened related to Wizard?").

I'm almost done with the game, I swear! And I still haven't forgotten about your blind test copy! rolleyes


author message
New interrupt rule
on: Mon 21 of Jul, 2008 [04:25pm] score: 0.00
I think I don't like the sound of your current interrupt rule at all. You WANT people to be able to interrupt, because that's what forces people to play fast! With a stiff penalty for interrupting, it's not worth doing, and then people can take a 20 minute turn.

I very much liked the increasing penalty for interrupts (-1/-2/-3...) - it means you WANT to interrupt sometimes, and it keeps you looking at the board trying to find a good word on EVERY PLAYER'S TURN. It also means on your turn you want to find a good word quickly, before someone interrupts you.

As for the "no cheapies" point above, maybe the rule could be "no repeating the root of a word" - which encompasses pluralization, adding "ly" - and also prefixes.

And one last point... in your post you said you were 8 months behind with my copy... I think it's more like 12 ;)


author message
Re: New interrupt rule
on: Mon 21 of Jul, 2008 [06:18pm] score: 0.00
Quote:
I think I don't like the sound of your current interrupt rule at all. You WANT people to be able to interrupt, because that's what forces people to play fast! With a stiff penalty for interrupting, it's not worth doing, and then people can take a 20 minute turn.

I very much liked the increasing penalty for interrupts (-1/-2/-3...) - it means you WANT to interrupt sometimes, and it keeps you looking at the board trying to find a good word on EVERY PLAYER'S TURN. It also means on your turn you want to find a good word quickly, before someone interrupts you.


Oh of course, that's the intent of the interrupt rule. But I found that with the increasing penalty, players hit a brick wall after their third interrupt because there's already an increasing penalty emerging from the game. After all, your first interrupt cancels out your worst word, your second interrupt cancels out your second-worst word, and so on. By the time you get to your fourth interrupt, you're canceling your second-best word, so the word HAS to be good.

That discouragement, to me, is just as good as an increasing penalty.

So what ended up happening when I had the increasing penalty was exactly what you wrote about, and what I want to avoid in the first place: someone would interrupt 3 times, hit that wall, and not be paying attention at the end of the game, which is exactly when I'd want him to be paying attention!

Not to mention that if everyone interrupts 4 times, then the whole flow of the game feels kind of pointless, as you're just crossing off 80% of your turns. Once in awhile is fine, but a player doing that should feel that he's taken a risk.

Hey, maybe I might see that an increasing penalty will be the way to go. But I want to try the flat -3 penalties for interrupts first, seeing as it's the simpler solution.

Quote:
As for the "no cheapies" point above, maybe the rule could be "no repeating the root of a word" - which encompasses pluralization, adding "ly" - and also prefixes.


That was the original "No Cheapies" rule, but it was too difficult to enforce. One player could argue that "wizard" has the same root as "wizened." Now, you and I might know it's not, but some game players (gasp) care more about competing than being right, and I don't want to go down there. I want an easily enforceable rule.

The current rule might allow a few cheap plays here and there, but the most common offenders are out, and it's incredibly easy to enforce. So I'm happy with it.

Quote:
And one last point... in your post you said you were 8 months behind with my copy... I think it's more like 12 ;)


It's a fair cop. But society is to blame!




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